Historical Facts.

SAMURAI36
1 month ago
@Chris Leonard Dude, you sound like somebody's fool. The majority of Hip-Hop's original founders were Caribbean. Alot of the present day rap artists yall like right now are from the Islands. This is what happens when Negroes have no knowledge of their fully history.

SAMURAI36
1 month ago
@Chris Leonard You are showing your ignorance. Caribbean people have been chanting (the foundation for cadence rapping, which is the foundation for modern Hip-Hop) since we landed off the boats in the islands. WTF is "early Hip-Hop? If you "found" something, then isn't it  "early"?

Not only did Caribbean people found Hip-Hop in Amerikkka, but most of the modern artists that I'm betting you like have Caribbean roots as well. Notice how you can't name a single "FBA" that founded Hip-Hop? I dare you to go down the list. Little by little, you'll see that Hip-Hop was not a strictly American creation. So go ahead, name the "FBA" founders of Hip-Hop before Herc & co. I'll wait.... 🤔

Also, to shoot down talent in the diaspora is pure stupidity. Bob Marley tops most of the American talent you can name, in terms of being widely recognized (black or white). Fela Kuti is another.



SAMURAI36
1 month ago
@OFF- CODE Now you're just talking, just to hear yourself talk. I already said Black Americans were not in Jamaica. But Black Immigrants have the highest Black population in NYC, which is where Hip-Hop started. Why do you think there's an area in NYC called "JAMAICA QUEENS"??? Theres no "Black American Brooklyn". LOL

The elements of Hip-Hop were definitely present in Jamaica prior to its formation in NYC. Rapping (especially the modern cadence version) is just chanting. It's also called Toasting, which Jamaican singers did & still do, long before Hip-hop.

Also, the DJ'ing aspect, with Breakbeats & whatnot, started in Jamaica with Dub Selectors, & Toasters "MC'ing" over "riddims". Same thing Kool Herc, Flash, Mel, Bam, Sugar Hill, etc were doing. All Caribbeans, BTW. These were the main founders of Hip-Hop. Notice how you couldn't name any of them? You either didn't know, or were just being dishonest.

Later came MC's like KRS, Run DMC, Fat Boys, Dougie Fresh & Slick Rick, Eric B & Rakim, Heavy D, Brand Nubian, X-Clan, Busta Rhymes, Poor Righteous Teachers, Salt N Pepa, Chub Rock, Kid & Play, Biz Markie & MANY others. Guess what they all have in common?

You dont seem to have any knowledge of the history of the culture of this artform. That's why you can't name any founding artists. Talking about some James Brown nonsense. I bet you didn't even know that the people I named above were Caribbean. I haven't even gotten to the modern rappers like Biggie, Jay-Z, Rick Ross, Nicki Minaj,  etc. Out of 10 rappers that you probably like, I bet 8 or 9 of them are Caribbean.

So there is no "Foundational Black American Hip-Hop". There is only the culture that Black people as a whole, from around the world created.


mr we-right
1 month ago
@OFF- CODE hip hop as a whole had both african american and african caribbean influence. you cannot separate it. now, there was Dewey "Pigmeat" Markham (April 18, 1904 – December 13, 1981). who recorded. one of the first raps. although it was not called that. he was born in north carolina. hip hop with all.the elements of that culture did not develop until africanamericans and africancaribbeans got together and made it in new york.


https://study.com/academy/lesson/music-of-west-africa-rhythms-dance-instruments-characteristics.html

mr we-right
1 month ago
@Chris Leonard West African songs are polyrhythmic, which means that they feature two or more conflicting rhythms. Traditional European music has one main rhythm, not the case in West Africa. These songs create layers of distinct rhythms on top of each other.  The most common form of polyrhythmic structure in this region is called the cross-rhythm, which is characterized by the hemiola, a rhythmic pattern where three beats are played over two beats in the same space. It is the most common form of cross-rhythm found throughout West Africa, but again, this is a simple beat by African standards. We start with the hemiola, then build more rhythms on top of it.


mr we-right
1 month ago
@Chris Leonard https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Music_of_Africa  Musical components

Despite their diversity, traditional African musical forms share some common traits. The emphasis is placed more strongly on rhythms than on melody and harmony. Repetition is use as an organizing principle on top of which improvisation is built. African music is mostly performed by groups of musicians, frequently employing polyphony, polyrhythm, and a conversational style of music and interlocking.
Gospel singers, N'Gaoundere, Cameroon.
Form

The most frequently used form in African musical traditions consists of the use of ostinato, or repeated short musical phrases with the accompaniment of melodic-rhythmic patterns. For example, in the call and response method, a leader usually sings a phrase with a chorus singing back a response. Two or more melodies may be combined to form larger sectional formations. Contrast is achieved through a series of musical movements or “acts,” each consisting of a section repeated several times.

mr we-right
1 month ago
@OFF- CODE if we take away brass instruments and pianos/organs and replace the guitar with the banjo https://photos.com/featured/slave-wedding-mpi.html shows some black american slaves marrying. do you think they were playing hip hop or blues? or their music sounded like james brown? james brown was not rapping he was not scratching records and though he was most definitely breaking it down lol. he was not break dancing. he did not do anything specific to early hip hop. the only black american who i have found ho as rapping chanting a rhyme to a beat a on record, before we heard west indians doing it is/was pigmeat markum from north carolina. that does not mean he started the practice. but he did precede west indian immigrants


mr we-right
1 month ago
@blackfirst 4eva well what is rap? this may seem like a stupid question however. “Ima Mbem” is a hybrid of song and speech utilized originally by Igbo masquerade societies.  “Ima Mbem” is a hybrid of song and speech utilized originally by Igbo masquerade societies.



SAMURAI36
1 month ago
@OFF- CODE PigMeat is not Hip-Hop. His act wasn't even mainly musical, it was mainly comedy. Did Pig rap to 2 turntables & a mic? Did he rap to break beats. That's what Hip-Hop is. There is more to Hip-Hop than just rapping. Our people have been rhyming to a cadence since Ancient Egypt.

I'm talking about the specific artform. You keep trying to talk around this. James Brown's genre was SOUL Music. Thays not Hip-Hop. Sure, Soul & other forms of music influenced Hip-Hop, but the original founders of the current artform were from the Caribbean.



mr we-right
1 month ago
@blackfirst 4eva "IMA MBEM": HYBRID OF SONG & SPEECH IN IGBO LANGUAGE
34,062 views
•Nov 5, 2016
147
11
Share
Save
Okenwa Nwosu

626 subscribers
i found this on you tube.

notice he said "IMA MBEM": HYBRID OF SONG & SPEECH IN IGBO LANGUAGE
what is rap? when you rap are you singing? or are you speaking. when you listen to a dance hall artist chant are they singing or speaking? are the migos singing or speaking? bone thugs was that singing or speaking? any other rapper singing or speaking?

igbo who are african have been in africa forever.

there were igbo slaves in jamaica, and america.

 mr we-right
1 month ago
also rapping is just one element of hip hop. their is also break dancing. break dancing looks similar to capoeira and some other dance battle arts rooted in africa.

mr we-right
1 month ago
https://64parishes.org/entry/spanish-colonial-louisiana Spanish Colonial Louisiana

Spain governed the colony of Louisiana for nearly four decades, from 1763 through 1802, returning it to France for a few months until the Louisiana Purchase conveyed it to the United States in 1803.
French Colonial Louisiana
The period of French colonial control of Louisiana dates from 1682 to 1800.

by Michael T. Pasquier

so for part of its history louisiana. was part of the latin world. the creoles of louisiana originated as a mixture. of french/spanish/black african. and local native americans.  their culture evolved separately from majority of african americans.  the creoles music was based on classical european music and marching band music.  you had free people of color mixed race people who were a buffer race between.  blacks and whites. now, in congo square you had different african tribes who would gather to beat drums and dance.


mr we-right
1 month ago
all we did to create blues/funk, etc was to https://daily.bandcamp.com/scene-report/gnawa-bandcamp-list


mr we-right
1 month ago
blues is just american version of music from

http://resourcesforhistoryteachers.pbworks.com/w/page/124186914/Sub-Saharan%20African%20Civilizations%3A%20%20Ghana%2C%20Mali%20and%20Songhai

mr we-right
1 month ago
on top of that i would not be surprised if https://i2.wp.com/www.ghanalive.tv/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/FRF019.jpg had some influence on jazz also https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.149.159/18c.3c0.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Sylvain-Leroux-Fula-flute-stuent.jpg https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-africa-49928252/keeping-alive-the-igbo-talking-flute-in-nigeria https://www.dhgate.com/product/kalimba-7-key-finger-piano-painted-coconut/422269221.html#seo=WAP





mr we-right
1 month ago
https://www.thenation.com/article/congo-square-colonial-new-orleans/ In Congo Square: Colonial New Orleans
Two new books uncover the colonial origins and musical roots of New Orleans.
By Joshua Jelly-Schapiro
December 10, 2008 The importance of what happened in Congo Square, not only to the history of New Orleans but to American culture at large, is neatly caught in a phrase that becomes a leitmotif of Sublette’s book. “On sabbath evening,” recorded the writer H.C. Knight on visiting the city in 1819, “the African slaves meet on the green, by the swamp, and rock the city with their Congo dances.” According to Sublette, this is the first use of “rock,” as verb and metaphor, in the manner that would a century and a half later become common to the idioms of pop music and youth culture worldwide. Tales of those “Congo dances” are not limited to the domain of scholars alone; they are rich in the oral lore of a city that claims to have invented not only jazz but funk (whose name perhaps derives from the Kikongo lufuki, for strong body odor) and where, as Sublette notes, in a rudimentary studio not one block from Congo Square in 1947, Roy Brown recorded “Good Rockin’ Tonight,” a tune with as much claim as any to being the first rock ‘n’ roll song.



mr we-right
1 month ago
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-jaz1.htm Jazz

Q From Brett Culton: Could you please tell me the origin of the word jazz?

A It’s a deceptively simple question. A mish-mash of colliding egos, conflicting claims and confused memories has led researchers down many false trails while searching for the origins of this American art form, not least where its name came from.

To pluck some examples from the many in the books: people have pointed to Jasper, the name of a dancing slave on a plantation near New Orleans in about 1825 whose nickname was Jazz; to a Mississippi drummer named Chas Washington in the late nineteenth century or to Chas, the nickname of Charles Alexander (of Alexander’s Ragtime Band) about 1910; to a Chicago musician named Jasbo Brown; to a band conductor in New Orleans about 1904 called Mr Razz; to the French chassé, a gliding dancing step that had already been turned into the archetypically American verb sashay as long ago as the 1830s; to the French jaser, useless talk for the pleasure of hearing one’s own voice; or the Arabic jazib, one who allures.

The intimate association of jazz with American black culture has led others to look for an origin in African languages, such as the Mandingo jasi, become unlike oneself, Tshiluba jaja, cause to dance, or Temne yas, be extremely lively or energetic.


 Ken Allen
4 weeks ago
@SAMURAI36 Excellent post. You indeed have good knowledge and insight into the early beginnings of hip hop. And I do understand your position as it can be frustrating when some brothers refuse to acknowledge the truth concerning the connection between the early Jamaican sound systems and hip hop. However, you have several pivotal omissions. Those omissions can help you to better understand the origins of both hip hop and reggae/ dancehall.

In order to fully understand this or to get a greater perspective on Hip Hop's origin you'd have understand these key things.

1) Disco. Disco predates Hip Hop. Its only by 1 year but its crucial in order to understand the connection between the 2. Disco was created in America as well as the entire Disco cculture. Understanding Disco will allow you understand club culture not just in America but how it became a dominant force globally. The pre Disco DJs were already DJing in clubs and pioneered the Turn Table techniques that were later adapted by early hip hop djs. Beat matching, layering, cross fading were going on the late 1960's prior the hip hop. Extending percussive elements and extending groove sections of certain records by playing 2 copies of the same record was all happening in the 60's independently of the early Jamaican sound systems. Early disco records (or dance records) as well as soul and funk were significant to the early foundational records played by Herc, Bam, Hollywood, etc.

2) Radio Personality DJs. Its crucial to understand the role that "personality djs" played in the evolution of rapping. Jive talking, scatting were spoken word play or styles by Black Americans. And these styles influenced the  first Black radio DJs in the late 40s. Catch phrases, rhyme scits, were part of the oral tradition of jive talking which in itself traces its roots to west Africa. These rhymic styles of "melodic talking" (or talking with rhythm and rhymes) formed the basis of how DJ Hollywood "rapped". But I agree with you on the point that pigmeat Markham is not a foundational Hip hop record.

3) The evolution of DJs and clubs in America. Djing as an art form began in the 1940s here in America and in France. After WW II going into the 50s it was cheaper to have a dj than to hire a live band. Thus begins the journey of the modern DJ. There existed DJs and Ball Rooms back in the 50s predating the early sound systems of Jamaica. The early American Radio personality DJs influenced the early Jamaican DJs who predated the first hip hop emcees. This was happening in America even before Jamaica's Duke Reid, Sir Coxsone and Lee Scratch Perry had reached their apex. And before dub, ska and rock steady existed, the early pioneers of the Jamaican sound systems were playing foundational Black American Soul and R&B records of Stax and Motown long before the first Jamaican Toasters. I'm merely saying that Djing as an art form existed in America back in the 1950s. The radio personality djs, seminal Soul/R&B records, Ball room/club culture had an influence on the evolution of the early Jamaican sound systems and even the spoken word play toasting styles. Look up the old radio personality djs. Listen to their chatty word play as they introduced records. Then hear what the Jamaican pioneers themselves had to say about their influence on their own styles.

However at the end of the day you are correct. Jamaican brothers did have toasting before hip hop. And yes, the hugely influential "Dub" was created in the late 1960s in Jamaica. But I see all of these events as a full circle because the early Jamaican pioneers were influenced greatly by the American Radio Personality DIs of the 40s and 50s. And this huge influence happened before the birth of the Jamaican sound system. Underground club culture in America with "talking" DIs was going on in the 1960s independent from the early Jamaican Toasters. But certainly it was Herc who would go on to take the break beat to another level with Timmy Tim and Coke La Rock. Hip hop and Reggae are absolutely related as you've stated. There is no denying that. But I think hip hops origins involve far more evolution in its story than just the early Jamaican Toasters and sound systems. In trying to learn more about hip hops origin it made me realize that the connection between Jamaica's Reggae Sound system lineage and Black America's musical heritage are intertwined.

In closing, id like to say that I agree with you that Herc, Bam and Flash are pivotal figures and founding fathers of hip hop. But the evolution of hip hop also includes many unsung heroes in its lineage.





SAMURAI36
4 weeks ago
@Ken Allen Very astute post, Bredren. These are the kinds of convo's that our people need to have globally.

Anyways, I agree with much of what you've said (although not entirely with ths way in which you've framed it), & had already accounted for the cultural diffusion of the various elements that comprise Hip-Hop ("full circle" as you said), as they manifest nearly simultaneously thru out the Diaspora, and had their earliest manifestations in classical & ancient Africa.

Regarding Disco, I would caution against citing that as any sort of precursor to Hip-Hop, as that was largely a white invention & lifestyle. In fact, various Hip-Hop pioneers have spoken at length about how Disco goers didn't want Blacks in their clubs, & even that the term Hip-Hop was originally derogatory, as the Disco crowd labeled us "Hippety-Hoppers"..

I'm aware of the radio DJ's as well. Again, I have no grievance with those things being in place prior to the official conglomeration of Hip-Hop, but this is still equally as problematic for me. I maintain that prior to the 70's, we are hard pressed to find the complete package of what we know Hip-Hop to be. Those radio guys were not doing breakbeats. Nor were they rapping/rhyming, in the strictest sense of those terms. Also, even in today's times, a DJ in the general sense is a completely different role in general music (as on the radio), as the role originally (& up till the golden age of Hip-Hop) was demonstrated in the traditional Hip-Hop culture.

I definitely agree with you that Caribbean sound systems were utilizing Black Amerikkkan music (soul, funk, etc) as their genres of choice. Which is what Herc & co did  in NYC. Mind you, it's never been my position that Hip-Hop is an extension of Reggae. Just that Caribbean people were instrumental in the formation of this unique artform. Hip-Hop as manifested by Herc & co was the perfect storm of ALL the elements that, at the time, were only being manifested in their entirety in the Caribbean,  despite the different , disparate elements being manifested at different points thru out the Diaspora. This is my key point; otherwise are just saying "Rock music is rock music", & we know that's not true either. The style of Rock that Elton John does, is not remotely the same as the style that Megadeath does.

This also ties into (while moving us a bit out of the "origins" discussion) contemporary Hip-Hop. What Wu-Tang does/did (during their height) is a far cry from what Lil Jon did/does. Yet thers was a sector of the culture that likes to say "it's all Hip". Really? Guns N Roses doesnt say that about Hootie & the Blow Fish. I was quite happy when they started labeling Lil Jon "Krunk". Thus, while he's under the Hip-Hop umbrella (I guess there's really no where else to put him, is there?), there's still a clear line of demarcation.

Similarly, I think the demarcation lines are important with the origin of Hip-Hop as well, otherwise we just end up saying "it's all just African music". Which while is true, it also does not tell the entire narrative. Things can be both distinct as well as holistic simultaneously.




SAMURAI36
3 weeks ago
@Bootney Lee Farnsworth LMAO, you named all of the Black American Hip-Hop pioneers, but NONE of the Caribbean ones. So now Herc, Flash, etc dont exist.

But then you claim only Caribbean folks have this "evil habit" while you just demonstrated the same "evil habit" yourself. So either you are Caribbean (which I wouldn't doubt, since most Black Americans have more Caribbean in their family tree, than anything else they try to claim), or you just made up that bogus shit you said. BTW, I won't rehash the history of Hip-Hop again to you. You've already proven that you either dont understand it, or believe it to be a lie. So whatevs on that. However, alot of people who are not from NYC dont seem to understand that NYC, especially in the 60's, was heavy with Caribbean & African  immigrants. There were entire neighborhoods in the Bronx & Brooklyn (the former where I loved, the latter I frequented), & even Queens that were almost exclusively Caribbean & African. Most people on here are not from NY, so they have no clue what the cultural climate of the city actually looked like. If you met 10 Black people in NYC, depending on where you met them, 6 or 7 of them would most likely be Carib or African, if not full blooded, then at least partially.

The point I'm making, is I'm willing to bet that alot of those "Rap Pioneers" that you are trying to tout as "ADOS" most likely had some Island blood in them, that you might not be aware of. You haven't tested their family tree, so you dont actually know what they were.

But hey, feel free to think whatever you want.

But I'm betting you think Malcolm X (Carib), Marcus Garvey (Jamaican), Farrakhan (Carib), Harry Belafonte (Jamaican), Sidney Poitier (Bahamas), and many more didn't exist, right?

When people get on here & say dumb shit like that, I automatically question whether they are even black at all.




Ken Allen
3 weeks ago
@SAMURAI36 Very insightful and intelligent post. These are the types of discussions like you said that we should have. They are both simultaneously engaging and enlightening. And its through respectful commentaries like this that we actually learn and continue to grow.

You're going to have to ignore this Bootney character as I can clearly see he isn't as well informed as you are. He forms this new breed of "ADOS" which is heavily biased towards Carribean nationals. He can't see the forest through the trees and simply doesn't know enough about hip hop in general.

You are correct again concerning your post about Disco. Yes its true that the Disco DJ pioneers were white. Dick Grasso, Nicky Siano and David Mancuso as well as Tom Moulton laid down the early DJing techniques back in the late 60s going into the 70's. But it was limited to the basic art of mixing two records together to keep the music flowing continuously. It was the black DJs who would advance the turn table techniques and take them them to new heights in both Disco and later on in Hip Hop. The underground disco culture was started by whites yes, but it was later adapted by the early black underground and quickly became a haven for Dance seekers. As the Disco "Clubs" quickly evolved in the early 70s, their strict door policies often discriminated against Blacks in America by not letting them in their dance clubs. And therefore a major reason for the birth of hip hop is that it was a direct response to Discos early discrimatory policies at their clubs. Thus arose the need for Blacks to have their own space and place to do their own thing. However, its important to note that their were a few clubs that were frequented by blacks that catered exclusively to blacks during the Disco era.

The reason why I place primacy on the early Black American  Radio DJs is because you can't understand either hip hop or reggae/dancehall without understanding the origin of Disc Jockeys. This important fact took me many years to grasp and put  together before I had my "blue" pill moment. But I first had to be and strive at all times to be objective. Only then would the missing pieces of the puzzle come together.

You see Samurai, the Jamaican brothers neither created nor invented DJing as an art form. Advance it yes, most certainly, but they didn't invent it. And please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But there existed no DJing culture at all in 1940's Jamaica. None at all. There also existed no recording industry in Pre-Independence Jamaica during the 1940s. They weren't recording any music or doing and sort of DJing as an art form during the 1940s. That would come into being during the mid 1950s in Kingston. But Black America was already making music even before the 1940s. Black America had those entertaining radio personality djs during the late 40s and 50s. And those black djs whose vocalizations on the Mic which was heavily influenced by their oral tradition of jive talking, influenced not only the white American DIs of the time but also the early Kingston Sound System Pioneers of the mid 1950s.

So where then did the first Jamaican mic men/selectors and DJS get their techniques from? Surely you don't believe that Djing evolved in Jamaica in complete isolation cut off from America. Black America was ground zero for musical innovation and no greater place as far music is concerned pushed the  boundaries further than black America in the 40s and 50s. The early Jamaican Sound System Pioneers and later on DJs got their inspiration for their vocal techniques in both the early DJing of Winston "Count" Machuki and sound system masters of ceremony from those same aforementioned Black Radio DJs. Jamaican Djing culture and heritage is not cut off from this. And there is a direct correlation between the rise of the jive talking black American Radio personality djs of the 1940's in the way they talked and threw rhyme catch phrases and the earliest Jamaican sound system pioneering  Masters of ceremonies and later on DJs. Radio DJs from America are a part of the story of the rise of the DJ in dance culture. There are numerous scholarly works that can attest to this. Both DJ Culture by Ulf Poschardt and Last Night a DJ Saved my Life by Bill Brewster and Frank Broughton have chapters in their books talking about this most important piece of history.   Again, Jamaica had no DJ culture that predates America. The foundation for the early Jamaican Dis actually came from America because that's where Djing was born both as a radio personality and as a presenter of music using 2 turntables and a Mic. Quite interesting to say the least.

I agree totally that 60s Jamaica was more advanced in their DJ culture than America during the mid/late 60s. But its evolution is not separate from America's Djing culture of the 40s and early 50s which predates Jamaicas. That's all I'm saying. But the profound influence and contribution that carribean brothers such as Herc, Flash and Bam would play in the development of hip hop is undeniable. They absolutely are part of the story of hip hop. But hip hops earlier chapters does predate Herc. I have to be fair there. But it all is a full circle to me. And personally I don't care who deserves the credit. To me they are all Black so its a win win to me. Blacks no matter what part of the world have always been the greatest musical innovators. So they are all African folks to me at the end of the day.

Oh... On a side note....Like Iv mentioned to you previously, I'm a new Yorker and iv lived here all of my life. The part about most blacks (meaning the majority) in new York having carribean ancestry is actually not true. A LOT yes, absolutely, but not the majority. I do understand why you say that given that New York is unquestionably the premier carribean satellite in America. However, out of new York's 2.2 million blacks, its almost 50/50. Its currently something like 1.1 million Caribbean/African Blacks and 900K-1 million native African Americans. It took decades for the black carribean/African population to reach 1 mil. It wasn't a million during 1973-1975 not by a long shot. And even with the existence of neighborhoods like Crown Heights, East Flatbush, Carnarsie, Brownsville, Jamaica Queens etc, you still have a native black American base here in new York that stretches far beyond the Harlem Renaissance. New York will always remain an important cultural base for Native Black Americans as it has for centuries. Its as important to Black Americans as it is to carribean nationals. But nah... Back in the early 70s it wasn't possible. Had it been now with the figures closer to like 50/50 you'd stand a better chance. I mean yes many of the seminal figures of hip hop from New York have carribean parents but not everyone. I always smile wen people think everybody from new York is "Caribbean". Man, Black Americans form about half of the population here. Trust me they are there. Lol. But its all good brother. The native black american and the carribean brothers and sisters history together  here in new York stretches back more than half a century. Peace.


SAMURAI36
2 weeks ago
@Ken Allen Please pardon my delayed responses. I wish more of us had this level of  cultural awareness, not just about Hip-Hop, but also a wide array of the global African experience. Perhaps then, we wouldn't be in the mess that we are in. Stories for other days....

As has been the case thus far, I dont disagree with virtually anything you've said. In fact, I love how you lay out the historical facts.

However, in the end, I dont think we necessarily disagree. As I said earlier, it's not that I think the various ingredients that comprise Hip-Hop are exclusively Caribbean. Far from it, as you have pointed out rather studiously. However, I do maintain that the presentation of those ingredients as a singular concept was not done prior to the Caribbean parties bringing it to NYC & evolving the art form even further.

For me, it's like debating whether person-A was the first to create a cake, just because person-B discovered eggs first, & person-C discovered flour first, & person-D discovered milk first.

A concept is more than just the sum of its components. We know that Hip-Hop is more than just DJ'ing, not only because DJ'ing existed before Hip-Hop l, but also continues to exist well after (& totally independent of) Hip-Hop.

I think we both agree, that there were no sound systems (crews consisting of DJ's & MC's) prior to the Carib element, both in Jamaica as well as NYC. Anything else serves as the cultural diffusion, but not necessarily the direct lineage of the artform.

But even if we move way from the origin point of the art form, my stake in this discussion stems largely from the narrative that is currently being formulated around Hip-Hop. I, like you, are quite content to acknowledge Hip-Hop as a unique Pan-African endeavor. Which is exactly what it is, as at no time have I not acknowledged the part that Black Americans have played in the development of the culture. 

Incidentally, I do agree with your point about the Caribbean populace at the times in question. However, as someone that was born around that time, & living in NYC (back & forth between NYV & Jamaica, actually), I was privy to the influence that Black Immigrants had on the Black community. Black Immigrants were inter marrying with Black Americans quite frequently. But moreover, we have to keep in mind the areas we are talking about. As I'm sure you know, the Bronx & Brooklyn were not only places with heavy Black Immigrant presence, but those were also the places where Hip-Hop were reported to have begun.

So yes, while there was indeed a prominent  Black Amerikkkan  presence in Harlem, that becomes inconsequential to the overall narrative, because Hip-Hop didn't develop in Harlem. It doesnt really further the Black Amerikkkan Hip-Hop Narrative.

That's a similar point to how Southern Blacks like to tout that leaders like Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad, & Drew Ali came from the South. However, that narrative doesnt work either, as those men left the South & went up North (Harlem, Detroit, & NJ) to spark their respective movements.

But back to the narrative...

My issue with the narrative being pushed currently, is that folks are trying to make Hip-Hop an exclusively Black American endeavor. We both know that's downright silly, but let's examine it even further.

Let's just say that these ADOS fools are correct (which they are NOT), & that Black Immigrants played no part in the formation of Hip-hop (not true).....

The problem continues for them, with the fact that most of the greatest names in Hip-Hop are not Black American.

Even if we exclude Flash, Herc, Bam, etc.... We are still left with KRS-One & most of BDP (Jamaican & Carib), Both Eric B AND Rakim (Jamaican), X-Clan (Brother J, Jamaican), PRT, Brand Nubian (various Carib members), Jungle Bros (one is Nigerian), Busta Rhymes (both his crews: Leaders & Flip Mode: Jamaican & Carib), Flavor Flav (Jamaican), Heavy D (Jamaican), Salt-n-Pepa (Pepa is Jamaican), Doug E Fresh (Carib) & Slick Rick (Afro-Brit), various Members of Boot Camp (various Carib), various Members of Wu-Tang (Jamaican, Dominican, etc), various members of Dipset (various Carib), MOP (Jamaican & Barbados), Canibus (Jamaican), Das-FX, Fugees (various Carib), Lost Boys (various Carib), Terror Squad (Rican/Dominican), various members of the Juice Crew (Carib).... And we haven't even gotten to everyone's fave Biggie (Jamaican), & JayZ (half Jamaican).

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, as I was going off the dome, but that's the majority of the Golden Age  of Hip-Hop accounted for.

And I'm not even mentioning alot of these new garbage rappers like Nicki Minaj, Trinidad James, Xxxtenacion, etc.

So whether it's the front end or the back end, the prominent Caribbean presence in Hip-Hop is undeniable.



SAMURAI36
2 weeks ago
@Bootney Lee FarnsworthLMAO, first you said no Black Inmigrants had anything to do with Hip-Hop, now you come back with this BS.

Rakim and & JayZ both have Jamaican fathers.

The Wu Members with Caribbean ancestry:

Mata Killah = Jamaican

Cappadonna & his Brother Lounge Lo = Jamaican

Suga Bang-Bang = Jamaican

Solomon Childs = Dominican

PR Terrorist (Killah Army) = Rican

Mikey Jarrett (Royal Fam) = Jamaican

Polite (Not to be confused with Polight from Sa Neter, who BTW is Nigerian) = Jamaican

Drunken Dragon (Manchuz) = Jamaican

Spiritual Assassin (Manchuz) =   Haitian

Papa Chief (Zu Ninjaz) = Haitian

So, you know..... You're a liar.

You wanna play the quantity game. I covered the most popular, most legendary artists. I never said there were no Black American rappers, like you tried to say there were no Black Immigrant rappers.

 And I still forgot people like Special Ed, Kid N Play,  The Fat Boys, Kwame, Foxy Brown, LL Cool J, Pete Rock, Bushwick Bill, Luke Skywalker, Mr Cee.... And if you respond again with some nonsense, I'm sure I'll come back with an even longer list of people that I forgot about.

This just shows that you know nothing about the culture you are trying to claim.

 Guru (Gang Starr) = Trini

50 Cent = Jamaican

Tribe Called Quest = various Caribs

Dame Dash = Barbados

Joel Ortiz = Dominican

Immortal Technique = South American

DMC = Dominican

AZ = Dominican

MF Doom = Trini

Mobb Deep = African (Havoc = Nigerian, Prodigy = Ethiopian)

Lox/D-Block = African (Styles P = South African)

Dana Dane = Jamaican

Forgot about Shaka AmZulu from Wu-Tang = Angola