From http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.360
That is because you don't understand that you cannot de-regulate EVERYTHING and wait for sociopaths to orchestrate a collapse, THEN PROSECUTE them after the entire economy meltsdown....... but you will never understand that, and if you do - you will never admit it.
The idea for instance, that exchange rate controls are BAD is ABSURD - tell that to a person in argentina after George Soros shorts their currency into oblivion?....
You've shown your colors by declaring the housing problem is the result of people "Intentionally defaulting on their mortgages" i have NEVER heard such a ridiculous argument in my entire life, then you go on to say that there "have always been homeless people" in response to the massive phenomina of tent cities popping up all over the country.
If anyone believes it is the U.S. populations fault that housing prices have collapsed as opposed to the Federal Reserve and Derivatives, then they deserve tyrrany.
-Revolt 426
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Of course i obviously agree, there has to be a form of saftey net for the very situation we are currently witnessing ( An incalculable Depresssion that will result in starvation and death if not addressed ). I would agree , it has to be reformed to prevent the massive abuse (Like illegal aliens not paying for it and getting the benefits anyway) , but to call medicaid/medicare "Socialism" is by definition a falsehood and is a big problem because calling a social net, "Socalism" or "Marxism" in this case narrows everyones views to the Preditory Capitalist System VS. the "Socialist" system when infact, you can of course have none of the above if you broaden your perspectives. I see the labeling of all Government activities as "Marxist Socialism" , which the mises website does in nearly all of their articles as a deadly threat to humanity.... which is why i attempt to highlight that "Marxist Socialism" is when the Government Seizes the Means of Production - not when the Government constitutionally provides for the General Welfare of the public. I know you understand this, so do not think i am attacking you here, i am merely highlighting it because i think it's very important.
In regards to both systems being the same, i'd certainly have to disagree with you there.... due to the fact that a fixed exchange rate system would allow the new currency to be pegged to current price levels to avoid the very deflation that an actual domestic gold coin barter standard would result in. That is the major issue here, an International Gold Standard can be pegged to current price levels, but a Domestic Gold Coin standard obviously cannot due to the impossibility of obtaining enough Gold to peg to current price levels..... In addition, a Domestic Gold Coin standard is the use of a commodity as Currency , which i've highlighted as not a "Storage Unit of Wealth" - but a means of exchange valued by a Nations net productive output per capita. So what you have here is using a volatile piece of metal (in the case of Gold) being used as a currency. This means gold mining drives currency levels as opposed to economic expansion - i believe doing this is a grave mistake and a also addressed this in my original post, as Mining for Gold really bears to resemblence to an actual economies expansion rate at all, while Infrastructure infact directly represents an economies expansion rate.
In regards to competeing currency (Specifically for private obligations) i'd also have to disagree , the reality of the situation is that this has indeed been attempted by none other than Andrew Jackson, and the result wiped out the perceived "Weaker" currency, and many families savings were wiped out along with it just because they held state issued notes and not gold convertable notes (Which later imploded the economy anyway)..... so i would also disagree that a competeing currency would help becuase the weaker currency would inevitably be dumped and wiped out. If there were a way to introduce competeing currency without this threat - i perhaps would not be opposed to it, but to my knowledge i simply cannot think of a way for a competeing currency to provide for the General Welfare Clause in any way shape or form.
-Revolt 426
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aLLyOuRbAsE - i actually agree and i am against fractional reserve banking (which is being used for Finance Capital aka Derivatives at the moment) and usery in general....
But what has lead to usery? it is the privatized issuence of credit! this was the case in Weimar Germany which allowed Hitler to come to power after the economic blowout and it is certainly the case right now.
I know sometimes i sound a bit nasty in certain responses , but in all honesty i know you were just asking a question , i certainly didn't mean to sound rude if i did ........ i get very frustrated sometimes when people mindlessly worship a certain monetary reform (Not you, you have actually asked logical questions) that would have devestating consiquences on the entire planet and then retort a counter argument with "That is socialism" , or "All fiat currency is theft".... these arguments are absurd in my honest opinion.
As for the Austrian school, they actually have certain reforms that would work - but sadly their foundations , which are
1) The Government must never intervene in the economy or it is "Socialism" and it "Prolongs" "Corrections" (As this is not a correction, but an orchestrated collapse)
2) Gold or similar commodities must be used as a currency
3) All Regulations are BAD for the economy
4) The complete lack of attention to dynamic factors (like derivative bubbles , infrastructure and productive labor) in their views of economics......
The above foundations are argued as "Absolute truths" by many Austrian Economists , and they indeed mislead certain people into believing falsehoods (though i of course admit, many of them do this 100% unwittingly and are really good people) - and that is why i made this thread. Because i am worried that in 4 years, the only alternative to the status quo will be the above mentioned policies that would wreck the nation!. I did this to inform people that there is an alternative that would not result in mayhem, and yes - i do acknowledge the Austrian school has some legitimate policy.
So in closing, i am willing to get a few people mad at me to highlight an alternative monetary policy that would not drastically hurt the world population...to highlight that fiat currency is not the enemy if the system is reformed..... and to highlight the return to a gold system with current debt and population levels would be very very damaging to say the least.
Just as Bill Cooper was willing to get people mad at him (Not sure if you saw his speech where he called the audience sheep to "Get them angry") to highlight our Government has been taken over by a cartel of criminals prior to his death.
-Revolt 426
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i would like to add
Quote
Lets take an example. If a person has a $300,000 mortgage on a house now priced at $100,000 and they are making a mortgage payment of $2,000 a month they can default, get foreclosed, and move into a $1000 a month apartment and they would in turn MAKE an extra $1000 a month by DITCHING their house. This is WHY and HOW this current housing crises is causing all these foreclosures. Isolated pockets of homeless people have been, and will be there for years to come. It's an emotional appeal, not a fact
Let's take this example at attach a Gold Standard, Austrian theory and reality to it, if someone is paying 2000$ a month for a mortgage, the monetary supply contracts to due the inevitable deflation caused by a gold standard, they will not only have their home foreclosed on by the very people that orchestrated this collapse - but they will likely have NO JOB to rent a house (Like the people in the tent cities all over the country) due to the 5 to 7 Trillion dollar infrastructure deficit and deflationary hell you wish to impose on them.
Yet, you would like to blame the people being foreclosed on for "Intentionally allowing their house to be foreclosed" instead of the Private Banking Cabal that caused the problem in the first place, then you would like to hand the peoples property over to those very same bankers that have looted the entire nation?
How is someone going to rent an apartment with no income due to deflation? Hello! is anyone in there? Do you know what deflation DOES to a country during a Depression (Or breakdown of the economy) ?.
How can you blame the citizens for causing a 1.5 Quadrillion dollar Derivative bubble? have you lost it?.
-Revolt 426
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It's not really about counter-acting inflation although it would have that effect when other nations purchase the physical goods this nation produces , it's actually about rebuilding the things necessary that would otherwise prevent a recovery... this nation has been de-industrialized to the brink of complete economic disintigration and certain people would have you believe the private sector is going to re-build roads, bridges, railways , water treatment plants and the like. The problem with this is they haven't done it thus far and the private sector is quite obviously dominated by lunatic malthusians that do not wish for the nation to be re-industrialized.
As for the infrastructure projects (in your question regarding "how do we know that will be enough"..) , that question answers itself. How do we know? you spend the amount of currency into infrastructure that is needed to complete the project. That is a part of "Moneterism dogma" , that being the question asked is "How much is that going to cost" - well how to you value a currency?
Is a currency valued by digging gold out of the Earth or is currency a means of exchange that reflects the net production output of a nation?. the latter is obviously the correct answer.
And as for people who wish to bring up the "Venus Project" , if the Banking Empire wanted these things done they would have been done already - and they would be being built right now, it is an absurd argument (This is obviously not aimed at allyourbase).... What gives the people more control over the monetary supply, the mandatory appropriation through congress and the executive branch of currency or privatized issuence of currency?. It's really quite absurd to argue the Government is going to be responsible for something like that when it is illegal to appropriate currency without a congressional vote..... that is unless the private sector can bypass it.
As for the Gold Standard creating deflation., not only have other Austrians posted "Deflation as Liberty" links in THIS thread from mises.org, but how do you think a BANKRUPT UNITED STATES is going to obtain enough GOLD to use as a currency for people to be able to pay their outstanding debts off?
This question has been answered a dozen times over and you still say "How do you know it's going to cause deflation"
are you INSANE? of course it's going to cause deflation do you think the U.S. is going to be able to get enough Gold to match the current monetary supply being the whole nation (and world) is bankrupt?
Aside from your de-railing, you still have not answered how people are going to pay off their inflated debts with deflated dollars - although you said "i did answer you , you just didn't like the answer" ..... i have YET to see an answer to this question.... can you please re- answer it?
I would also like to know how foreclosing on people and giving their property to the banks that orchestrated the depression is an emotional appeal? i see that as the reality that you are attempting to impose on humanity?
In our current situation the "Not matter what" phrase i used still stands. In my view, saving human lives during a Depression is far more important than deficit spending to "Balance the Budget" , as Mouslini said in his drive towards Corporatism, as Mayor Bloomberg and Arnold Schwarzeneggar parroted recently during economic hardships in regards to cutting public programs..... and as Obama is saying to "Cut Medicaid , Medicare" and now, Social Security - if however, we seized the insolvent banks rather then bailing them out and ended our occupation of numerous countries it is my sincere beleif it would not put us into debt, specifically with good monetary reform that increases the nations physical productive capabilities. The point of a social net is not only a moral one to provide health care (I'd suggest reforming and expanding medicare/medicaid) , but one that preserves the nations productive workforce from being wiped out, because without that workforce there is obviously no chance of a recovery.
I'd also emphasize as Webster Tarpley did - no gutting of Social Security during a Depression. We are well aware 401k's/Pensions have been wiped out and with GM/Ford (Our last productive industry) going down this is going to drastically expand this problem.
As you can see from the following, the powers that be are still to this day parroting the Mousilini "Balance the Budget" during economic hardship stuff, all the while completely dumping every cent of our GDP into bailing bankers out of a black hole......
It's Now Public: After Health Care, Obama Intends to Dismantle Social Security
June 17, 2009 (LPAC)—None other than Mr. Peter Orszag himself took to the pages of today's Financial Times to assure London financiers, that "once health-care reform is in place," Social Security is next on the Obama administration's chopping block. The pledge by President Obama's Office of Management and Budget Director is made in the concluding paragraph of a signed op-ed touting the Obama administration's fascist health-care reforms as "A Medical Plan to Boost America's Fiscal Health;" not to secure human health, but that of the financial system.
In its June 10 report on its annual review of the U.S. economy, the International Monetary Fund reported that it had received similar assurances from Obama administration officials: "We welcome the Administration's intention to work toward developing a political consensus on Social Security reform once health-care reforms are complete," the IMF wrote. This arm of the usurious monetarist system insisted the U.S. must be ready to further bailout Wall Street if necessary, but "substantial further measures will be needed to rein in soaring entitlement costs over the longer term."
Thus, is it again made bare, that the intention of the current fascist controllers of the Obama administration, is to rip up the U.S. Constitution, its General Welfare clause, and the entitlement programs which defend human life. With FDR's life-saving Social Security program still in place, old people in the United States may not "get out of the way" as fast as Prince Philip would like. Deny them health care and Social Security both, in the middle of an economic breakdown crisis, and killings en masse are guaranteed.
-Revolt 426
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Quote from: aLLyOuRbAsE on June 09, 2009, 08:10:16 PM
i dont think im getting this, you spend the amount needed to complete the infrastructure, but how do you know that the infrastructure will offset the amount youve had to inflate?
Good question, because infrastructure allows the expansion of an economy.
I mentioned a very simple example of this in regards to water treatment plants needed to facilitate the population, but it goes much further then that...
You need energy output to facilitate the population (Infrastructure)
You need Transit (Infrastructure)
You need Roads (Infrastructure)
etc.. al..... so, the question remains what really reflects the current population levels, digging up gold out of the Earth or Infrastructure - which would you prefer your currency be pegged too?
Spending money into the economy does not cause inflation - because it has labor and infrastructure to back it, so you are not "artificially inflating, to counter act deflation" , you are actually providing the physical economic infrastructure required for a modernized economy to function...... the resultant of modernizing infrastructure is an increase in production output, which is really what a sound currency is..... when your production output levels are equivalent to the amount of currency in circulation.
Did that help?, if i misunderstood re-phrase and i'll respond.
-Revolt 426
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It is really unbelievable to see people blame the "Government" when it is common knowledge that the "Government" is not responsible for the Private Banking Cabals that have taken OVER the Government - then to see the solution "Get rid of Government"....... how about we get rid of the PRIVATE BANKING CABAL?:
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=110299.0
Why America is a bank-owned state
Can people be rational ? does it always have to be this herd mentallity "Government is always the enemy" while completely disregarding that Banks are running the nation?. It is really mind boggling at this point..........
No one advocated "BIG GOVERNMENT" in this thread at any point, but the argument none the less comes up "We need smaller Government!" in response to a monetary reform thread.... sure go ahead and cut the beuracracies out of Government, that doesn't mean we don't need Government at all, these absolutes are really absurd upon examination.... you ignore how this situation started in the first place (By handing our monetary supply FROM the Government, To a PRIVATE BANK)
-Revolt 426
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Quite absurd, because during the 1800's Andrew Jackson's "Gold Standard" Imploded the economy (Which is the 19th Century as the propaganda you posted just mentioned).
In addition - as i've mentioned about 50 times, the Bretton Woods system (1944-1971) was infact, not a domestic Gold Standard but a Fixed Exchange Rate system based on an International Gold Standard..... but people just don't want to read do they?
Economic Reform?
If they are not spent productively you get an economic breakdown like we are currently seeing, this can lead to inflation.
The point of spending them into productivity is that productivity (Labor) is required for Capitalism to exist.
Our current workforce is a "Service Economy" meaning, there is virtually no production left due to outsourcing to slave wage nations via "Free Trade" agreements.....
You cannot subsitute production with services, because it leads to the current situation. I hope that answers the question.
-Revolt 426
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I would not object to calling what I'm advocating "economic" stimulus, but calling it "fiscal" stimulus implies that the money being spent on public infrastructure is obtained either by taxing it first or by borrowing it first. And under my system it is neither taxed nor borrowed, but "issued."
If your definition of fiscal stimulus includes the option of issuing debt-free currency to fund infrastructure (as opposed to taxing or borrowing debt-based currency to fund it), then by all means call it that.
I was simply acknowledging the fact that, since the average American isn't even familiar with that option (yet), his definition of fiscal stimulus is usually limited to the other two options of tax-and-spend and borrow-and-spend, and that it would therefore likely cause unnecessary confusion in the minds of relative newcomers to lump all three options into the same category.
That's merely a point of clarification. I'm not even arguing with anyone at this point. Logged
-geolibertarian
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There actually is one phrase you used worth addressing since all other derailing nonsense has already been addressed. "Faith Based Economics" , considering the Austrian "Theory" that has been debunked by a multitude of people has NEVER been proven and the other reforms are constitutional and HAVE been proven.
That is what i call "Faith based economics" , having faith in a system that has no historical basis as opposed to one that has actually worked. The Austrian theory is unconstitutional because it is against the general welfare of the citizens of the United States (and the world) due to the fact that it would foreclose on an un-imaginable amount of mortgages and kick people out of their homes (which leads to tent cities as opposed to your suggestion that they simply "Buy/Rent cheaper homes"). All this while the very bankers that orchestrated this entire collapse would end up owning all of the property?
Your characterization of any human innovation as "Faith based" becuase only the "Markets" know if it will spurr the economy was already addressed as a utopian falsehood due to the fact that human innovation/inventions drive economies in the first place - a full circle from start to finish. An Anti-Scientific, stone age view of civilization.
Your argument "What if we spend a quadrillion dollars into a mag lev and it takes 50 years to build" - can you use common sense? Do you know how railways are built? does it take a quadrillion dollars to build a railway? Do you realize sectional parts of the railway would be operational as the entire system was built? How was the first Intercontinental Railway built? did we spent 1 quadrillion dollars?
What if the sky falls? What if Jesus is ressurected and he fixed the economy? What if ........ we stop with the irrational "What if" questions that can be answered by common sense and address the question that would literally kick anyone with debt out of their homes?
It's not really about counter-acting inflation although it would have that effect when other nations purchase the physical goods this nation produces , it's actually about rebuilding the things necessary that would otherwise prevent a recovery... this nation has been de-industrialized to the brink of complete economic disintigration and certain people would have you believe the private sector is going to re-build roads, bridges, railways , water treatment plants and the like. The problem with this is they haven't done it thus far and the private sector is quite obviously dominated by lunatic malthusians that do not wish for the nation to be re-industrialized.
As for the infrastructure projects (in your question regarding "how do we know that will be enough"..) , that question answers itself. How do we know? you spend the amount of currency into infrastructure that is needed to complete the project. That is a part of "Moneterism dogma" , that being the question asked is "How much is that going to cost" - well how to you value a currency?
Is a currency valued by digging gold out of the Earth or is currency a means of exchange that reflects the net production output of a nation?. the latter is obviously the correct answer.
And as for people who wish to bring up the "Venus Project" , if the Banking Empire wanted these things done they would have been done already - and they would be being built right now, it is an absurd argument (This is obviously not aimed at allyourbase).... What gives the people more control over the monetary supply, the mandatory appropriation through congress and the executive branch of currency or privatized issuence of currency?. It's really quite absurd to argue the Government is going to be responsible for something like that when it is illegal to appropriate currency without a congressional vote..... that is unless the private sector can bypass it
-Revolt 426
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most European countries and Canada have excellent social security systems and socialized medicare ... and the poeple who live there understand the system and are proud of the quality of social services they get. WHen they reach retirement age they will have money there ...
Yes, I do agree with some of the views of the Tea Party. I'm sick and tired of these social programs, I'm sick and tired of poor people who can't hold up their slack and then hard working people like me have to pay taxes for their lazy asses. Tim, it isn't the job of the government to provide "social services," that is what the private sector and charities are for.
We don't need Social Security, Welfare or Medicare, and Social Security is nothing but a Ponzi Scheme. The government forces you to pay into it but now the fund is empty and no money will be there when I become a senior. So basically, the social security fund is a fraud.
Like I said, Blacks have an entitlement mentality and this is why they love Welfare, WIC, the Democratic party, and other social programs. I despise these programs. Every dollar I own or make came through hard work, sacrifice, and discipline, nobody has ever given me sh*t. And I have no respect for losers who grovel to the government for hand outs because they're too stupid and lazy to fend for themselves.
-franko
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Correction ... the USA was nto alone in that war ... the USA TEAMED UP with the allies win WW2 ...
WTF? Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about. The Great Depression happened AFTER the Federal Reserve was created, not before. Have you forgotten that the USA was established in 1776?
For the first 153 years of American history THERE WAS NO DEPRESSION. There were "recessions," not "depressions," Emperor John. Do you know the difference between the two? America didn't have the first depression until 1929, and that was because of the FEDERAL RESERVE, which was created in 1913 and its expansion of credit and "easy money" led to what became known as the ROARING TWENTIES.
Spend more time studying history, you have a lot to learn. One more thing, Roosevelt didn't get us out of the Great Depression, he exacerbated it. WORLD WAR 2 got us out of the Great Depression, because wars are good for an economy so long as that economy is not destroyed in the War, and the USA won WW2.
ABout 12.5 million Americans fought in WWII in Europe ... about 30 million Europeans and Russians fought against Germany.
ALso, the USA genral public was never in danger from Germany ... but all the citizens of the UK, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Austria, Hungary, RUSSIA,... and a few others, were under direct fire.
Less than 1 million US citizens, nealry all soldiers, died in the EUrpoean war. Over 50 million European citizens and sodliers died in that war.
Another 4 million Americans fought against Japan.
-franko
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there is corruption and abuse in any large system ... however, the difference between a PONZI scheme and a social system is that the PONZI scheme is a short term get rich quick scheme that only the senior and originating members can benefit from. Most social systems have already been running for more than half a century, and in some countries over a century, and most of the public that deserves access to the systems has been getting that access/benefits. If the social system was a PONZI scheme it would have died within a few years at most.
Social Security is a government sanctioned Ponzi Scheme, it is no different from what Bernard Madoff did, the only difference is that it has government approval. In a Ponzi Scheme, people pay into a fund with the promise and expectation that they will get money from it later, but only the people who paid into the fund at the beginning get paid, everyone else is left holding an empty bag.
Research "Ponzi Scheme" in Wikipedia and then study the Social Security program carefully and you will see that the two are basically the same. The government forces you and I to pay into the SS fund, but they have been dipping their hands into this fund for years and now it is estimated that the government OWES trillions of dollars that it doesn't have, which means Baby Boomers who think they can rely on Social Security are going to get raped when they find out there is no money in it.
Research recently showed that the money coming out of the SS fund actually superseded the money going in, and that is bad news. Welfare creates more poor people because the government taxes productive citizens to pay for citizens who are not productive. Why should I have to pay taxes for some hoochie mama and her 5 kids who are lazy, incompetent, and who don't want to excel in life?
-franko
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You forgot about the panic of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857You also forget that the Roaring twenties had a series of Republican presidents and congress. Now as for the age before the "Great Depression" there were many countless recessions occurring at a rate much higher than they occur now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessio...
WTF? Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about. The Great Depression happened AFTER the Federal Reserve was created, not before. Have you forgotten that the USA was established in 1776?
For the first 153 years of American history THERE WAS NO DEPRESSION. There were "recessions," not "depressions," Emperor John. Do you know the difference between the two? America didn't have the first depression until 1929, and that was because of the FEDERAL RESERVE, which was created in 1913 and its expansion of credit and "easy money" led to what became known as the ROARING TWENTIES.
I love how conservatives like to repeat this lie. Roosevelt inherited a 25% unemployment in 1933 when he became Pres. By 1936 it was at 11%. In 1937 Roosevelt cut spending and raised taxes and the unemployment zoomed up again. Had Roosevelt stayed on his path he would have got us out.Spend more time studying history, you have a lot to learn. One more thing, Roosevelt didn't get us out of the Great Depression, he exacerbated it. WORLD WAR 2 got us out of the Great Depression, because wars are good for an economy so long as that economy is not destroyed in the War, and the USA won WW2.
Conservatives like you love to say that WWII brought us out of depression not government programs, but what was WWII. It was a major government stimulus program. THe government created jobs for people to go to work which is what they supposed to do in a stimulus program.http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/Great_Depression#Turnin g_point_and_recovery
-emperorjohn
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